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. Last updated
02/03/06.
Copyright Old Town Station, Ltd.
ASK THE GUN GUY ARCHIVES
-- Early Fall 2001
Q&A column by Jim Supica, many of these originally published in Shotgun News
On this page:
Featured essay: NEW DEAL AT S&W! - return to American ownership vs. HUD agreement
Other topics:
Martial Remington & general cartridge conversion revolver info
Remington Model 8 .35 cal. semi-auto rifle
.41 Rimfire Robin Hood spurtrigger revolver
Pony Express 15 shooter - Winchester 1866 & Henry lever actions
Winchester High Wall & Low Wall single shot rifles
Wells Fargo shotgun & legality of pre-1898 "antique" sawed-off shotguns
Q -- With the new ownership by Saf-T-Hammer, are people still boycotting Smith & Wesson? I'm looking for a .357 revolver, and have always liked S&W.
A -- For anyone who has been lost in the Peruvian jungle for the past few years a brief background synopsis may be in order. Here’s how I understand it. During the waning years of the Clinton administration, when gunmakers were under ever increasing litigation by various & sundry government agencies, Smith & Wesson entered an “agreement” with the Federal Gov’t.’s Dept. of HUD. In very general terms, S&W agreed to develop & include various purported “safety” features in their guns, and introduce stringent restrictions on how dealers that carried S&W products would conduct their business. In exchange, S&W was supposed to be dropped from the various lawsuits & receive preferential treatment in government purchase of handguns. It was widely reported that the agreement has been negotiated & accepted on S&W’s end single-handedly by their then CEO. A few months later a similar agreement was reportedly entered into with a municipality.
A significant portion of the gun rights community was outraged by the agreement, feeling that S&W had broken ranks & caved in to unreasonable anti-gun sentiment. There were loud & vehement calls for a boycott of the firm. Others believed that the move was either mandated by the British firm that owned S&W at the time to try to shed the burden of looming lawsuits at a time when they were trying to sell the firm; or was a move of necessity to try to stay in the gun-making business when there was a significant possibility of being harassed out of existence.
To date, the agreement seems to have had little effect other than pissing off a lot of gun guys. It appears that S&W has not received much lawsuit relief, and has not been given any preference in government purchasing. Nor, if one can believe word of mouth, have the terms of the agreement been actively enforced for S&W dealers. It’s not clear that there was ever any true consensus between the parties as to exactly what the agreement required of whom when.
Since then, the country has elected a new President, whose administration has indicated they do not particularly intend to enforce the agreement. Also, Smith & Wesson has indeed been sold by its British owners to an American owned company based in Arizona, Saf-T-Hammer.
Now, to answer your question:
Those of us who want the best double action revolver available (and who believe that a century and a half as one of America's premier gun-makers outweighs a single bone-headed dickless decision of one temporary CEO to give in to extortion by the radical Clinton administration, bloodsucking plaintiff's attorneys & Limey owners) ARE happily buying S&W products.
We are also quite relieved that both ownership of the company, and administration of the country, are back in sane, American hands, and expect to see the onerous “agreement” slip quietly to the ashbin of history where it belongs.
On the other hand, the folks who are purer than Caesar's wife are still boycotting S&W. However, to be consistent, I'm fairly sure they are also boycotting Ruger because of Mr. R's comments on magazine capacity a decade ago, and Colt because of their decision a few years back to abandon most of the civilian handgun market.
Certainly they'd refuse to own an SKS or AK variant made by slave labor in Russia or China. Ditto any WWII vintage German weapon tainted by Nazi usage, plus any arms made by successor firms such as Mauser or Walther. I guess Taurus, Rossi & Glock really ought to be a bit suspect due to foreign ownership & origin.
Also, I'm sure they're a bit concerned about the true motives of the international conglomerate that is buying up firms like Winchester & FN . . .
Gosh, I guess Springfield Armory better gear up production. Maybe they'll start making DA revolvers.
Gimme a break.
As an active member of the S&W Collector's Association (SWCA), I'm biased of course. I will admit that I was extremely disappointed by the S&W agreement, and I know a number of fellow SWCA members who forswore new production S&W's because of the agreement (easy for them, since they preferred the older stuff anyway...)
The CEO of the new S&W owner Saf-T-Hammer was a guest speaker at the latest SWCA annual meeting & show. Unfortunately, I missed his presentation. However, I did speak w/ a couple of former boycotters - hardheaded guys whose opinions I respect - asking them what they thought of the presentation & the new ownership. Both said they were not only giving up the boycott, they were both also going to buy Safe-T-Hammer stock. Sounds pretty good to me.
There's a fellow active on one of the online gun talk boards who uses a signature line that I think sums up the whole deal nicely at this point -- "Boycott Democrats, not S&W".
-- Jim
PHOTO CAPTION - SW-USA.jpg - New ownership returns Smith & Wesson to American hands.
AINSWORTH MARKED REMINGTON CONVERSION
Q -- Jim,
Good morning, I was wondering if you could help me out
with your opinion. I am looking at a Remington conversion revolver, and have only
limited experience with them. I was wondering with greater knowledge if you
feel it is worth the asking price. I am not holding you in any responsible, I
am just asking for your unvarnished opinion. Description:
Remington 1858 Army, converted to 44CF, period dealer nickel finish
which is now mostly a thin brown patina and 20% nickel. Crisp smooth
metal, good mkgs, fine bore and action, fine grips with Ainsworth cartouche.
Cylinder marked "Patent Applied For". . VG-VG+ $1150
Thank You,
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
A -- That sounds like a pretty reasonable price to me.
Cartridge conversions represent a fascinating & colorful period in the history of firearms evolution. Generally, they date from the 1870’s in the period following the Civil War, when revolvers chambered for self-contained metallic cartridges were rapidly replacing the older percussion revolvers. The latter were relatively cumbersome to load, requiring chambers to be charged with loose black powder, lead balls to be seated in each chamber with a rammer, and a percussion cap mounted on a nipple for each chamber in the cylinder. The simple & relatively durable & weatherproof metallic cartridge represented a great improvement, and proved immediately popular.
Remington, Colt, and others were faced with stockpiles of parts for the old cap & ball revolvers when the market was demanding cartridge handguns. Their solution was to modify the revolver designs & existing parts to adapt the percussion designs to accept metallic cartridges. Some of these were manufactured from new parts, and others were made up by the factories by modifying existing percussion revolvers.
The government also experimented with converting some of their large stockpile of suddenly obsolete Civil War sidearms into the more modern system. In addition to the factory & military conversions, many individual gunsmiths and not a few creative blacksmiths took it upon themselves to convert old percussion revolvers to fire the new fangled cartridges.
Today, the end result is a somewhat complicated & fascinating field for collectors & historians, with a large number of factory made models & variations, not to mention individual idiosyncratic pieces. The best reference to sort these out is Bruce McDowell's Colt Conversions - a great book which covers all cartridge conversions, not just Colts.
I’ve been especially interested in some of the Remington conversions such as you describe, due to a key role they played in gun history. The Remington Army conversions may represent the earliest American made large bore US revolvers. At about the same time as S&W was developing the Model Three, Remington was producing .46 rimfire Army Model conversions. Some of these were had cylinders marked with the patent date “April 3rd, 1855”, suggesting that arrangements had been made by Remington to license S&W’s Rollin White patent on a bored through cylinder.
In 1870, a War Department Board reviewed new handgun designs for the military, and recommended the purchase of 1,000 each of the Remington .50 cal. Rolling Block Single Shot Pistol, the Smith & Wesson .44 cal. Model Three revolver (the American Model), and an unspecified large caliber Remington conversion revolver. About a year later, around 1,200 Colt Richards .44 conversions were also ordered by the U.S. Ordnance Department.
The story of the subsequently purchased S&W Americans is relatively well known, down to the serial numbers of the individual guns. A good deal of collector attention is also paid to the U.S. purchase Colt Richards conversions. However, I’ve never been able to figure out whether the Remington conversion purchase went through, and if so, the configuration & identifying characteristics of these 1,000 revolvers.
Interestingly, both the S&W U.S. Americans & the U.S. Colt Richards are found with the “OWA” cartouche of military inspector Orville A. Ainsworth stamped on the grips. (His cartouche is also found on the earliest U.S. military Colt Single Action Army revolvers produced through 1874.)
These earliest large cartridge revolvers have a special place in American legend & lore, representing the sidearms of the Old West, both military & civilian. For example, forensic research from the Battle of the Little Big Horn suggests that at least one Remington .44 conversion and a Colt .38 conversion were used there.
Although Hollywood & TV’s old horse-operas have conditioned us to think of the Colt SAA as the quintessential Old West hogleg, if you look at production dates & quantities it becomes apparent that many of the holsters of the colorful 1870’s must have been filled with cartridge conversions. It’s interesting to note that through the 1870’s only around 50,000 Colt SAA’s were produced, with around 19,000 of those going to the military.
I’ve wondered if the Ainsworth cartouched Remington conversions might represent the 1,000 gun purchase recommended by the 1870 Ordnance board, but haven’t been able to find much in print on the topic. Even though the story is not fully known, given the big bucks that the Ainsworth era martial Colts & S&W’s bring, $1,100 for a legitimate (assuming it is) Ainsworth Remington .44 Conversion in Very Good condition seems like a good buy to me. It may be a bit of a gamble, as that price could be just a bit high for a standard, non-Ainsworth Remington .44 Cartridge Conversion in VG, as these can sometimes be found in the $600 to $900 range.
It seems that there is still much to learn about the U.S. purchase .44 Remington conversions of the 1870’s. If any readers can point me towards a definite reference on the Ainsworth Remingtons, I’d be most appreciative.
PHOTO CAPTION - - Remington Army conversion to .44 centerfire cartridge, Ainsworth inspected.
CARRYING ANTIQUE GUNS
Q -- I'm just starting to learn all the laws when it comes to the older guns. I whose wondering about the concealed carry law. Can a pre 1890 gun be carried without a permit or do you need to get one? With it being classified as a non-gun I’m a little lost. Thank you for your time. - Hal.
A -- This is a question that often occurs to folks as they begin to study firearms laws, and it’s an example of the old saying about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. I’ll tackle an answer, but please remember this is not legal advice.
It’s true that most guns made prior to 1899 are defined as “antiques” under the definitions in the Gun Control Act of 1968. This generally means that they are exempt from the requirements of that specific Federal law. For example, you do not have to licensed to be in the business of buying & selling them, they do not have to be recorded by licensed FFL dealers who buy & sell them, they can be shipped interstate between buyer & seller without additional paperwork, the NICS background check and “yellow form” 4473 are not required when they are purchased from a dealer.
This is a nice situation, in that it allows antique gun collectors to enjoy their hobby and history buffs to conduct their research without a lot of additional paperwork & hassle -- appropriately so, as there has historically been practically no criminal abuse of antique guns.
You cannot, however, jump to the assumption that pre-1899 firearms are “non-guns” as concerns other laws.
Most laws restricting firearms carry, concealed or open, are state & local laws. As such, they would not necessarily follow the definitions adopted by the Federal GCA ‘68. Each state or locality can define “gun” or “firearm” as they see fit, and they may or may not define “antiques”, and may or may not exempt antiques from the coverage (my guess would be usually “not”).
In practical terms, if a law enforcement officer has cause to take you down for carrying illegally, I don’t think it will make much difference to him whether you are toting an 1890 vintage Colt SAA or a 2000 vintage Ruger Vaquero. Now, if it’s a rather cordial encounter & the officer is an understanding sort, you might have a better chance of convincing him that an antique sixgun was innocuous component of your Cowboy Action outfit than you would of convincing him that your Glock was an oversized watch fob. However, that’s more a function of your gift of gab, the circumstances involved, and the officer’s disposition than the letter of the law.
Also remember that one of the most expensive things you can hear a lawyer say is “That’s an interesting question.” Never be a test case if you can avoid it.
My advice is to get a concealed carry permit, a safe & effective modern handgun, and scrupulously follow the letter of the law. If you live in one of the few states that does not have legal concealed carry, contact your legislators to insist on a law enabling you protect yourself & your family, and contribute to the organizations who are fighting for you on this important safety & civil right issue.
Jim
PHOTO CAPTION -AntqCCW.jpg - Supica sez: Don’t rely on the federal definition of “antique” firearm to exempt you from coverage of state concealed carry laws.
Q -- I have a Remington 35 that I am told is around 100 years old. It's a 4 or 5 shot semi-automatic rifle, seems to be military, serial # has five digits. Looking for history of weapon. Can you help or direct me to someone who can?
A -- The early Remington .35 caliber autoloading rifles were not military guns, and were primarily marketed as sporting rifles. With their distinctive Browning design hump back frame they do have an almost military, business-like appearance. They did gain a certain popularity with some law enforcement officers, thanks to the combination of relatively powerful cartridges and rapid semi-automatic operation.
Introduced in 1906, this Browning-designed rifle was initially known as the Remington Autoloading Repeating Rifle, although the name was changed to the Model 8 in 1911. It was offered in calibers .25, .30, .32 & .35. In 1936, an improved version was introduced as the Model 81 Woodmaster, still with the distinctive Browning-design style square backed frame. Production was continued until about 1950, and its place in the Remington product line was filled by the Model 740, a different design, also sometimes called the Woodmaster.
In researching your question, I learned that there is in fact a military Remington Model 1935 military rifle, although it’s a bolt action rather than semi-auto. Reportedly, some prototypes marked “Model of 1934 Military Rifle” & “Model of 1935 Military Rifle” were made between the World Wars, primarily in an attempt to generate South American military sales. They were based on what Remington called its Model 40 bolt action rifle frame, and apparently never saw full regular production.
It’s always been a bit tough to find good compiled information on Remington firearms for some reason. There is a relatively new, and very helpful, book out called “Remington, America’s Oldest Gunmaker”, by Roy Marcot -- it‘s where I found the tidbit on the Model of 1935. It’s the “Official Authorized History” of Remington & is richly illustrated. Initially published in 1998, I understand that this book may be out of print now, but it is certainly worth looking for a copy if you have an interest in this great American firearms maker.
PHOTO CAPTION - The Remington Model 8 was an early semi-auto rifle, offered in .35 Remington, among other calibers.
.41 Rimfire Robin Hood Revolver
Q -- Hi, I recently came across an old revolver and I'm not familiar with it at all . Could you help me with the who, what, when, and where of it. I'll describe it the best I can, it's a spur trigger, with a patent date of 1875 on the barrel, it is stamped CAL 41 near the trigger, it is a rimfire, single action, and it has ROBIN HOOD stamped on the top of the barrel. It has small walnut grips and is pretty rusty but it looks like it might have been blued. The barrel sight is brass. That's about all I can tell you. I'd like to know who made it, where it was made. It seems like a pretty small revolver for a 41 cal. The barrel is about 2.5 to 3" long. I just have never heard of a 41cal rimfire.
anyhow thanks in advance Mike
A -- Hi Mike,
.41 Rimfire was a fairly popular caliber for pocket pistols in the late 1800's. I guess the classic gun for this caliber would be the famous Remington double derringer, popularized in the movies & dime novels as a "river boat gambler hide-out gun" type deal, which was made from 1866 to 1935.
The Robin Hood series consisted of relatively inexpensive spur trigger revolvers manufactured in the 1870's-1880's. The only info I've seen published on these is in the out of print book "Suicide Specials“ by Donald B. Webster, Jr. There it indicates that these were made by the Hood Fire Arms Co., a Norwich, Conn., firm established about 1870. The principal, F.W. Hood, also was involved with Continental Arms Co., Norwich Arms, and Bacon Manufacturing.
Webster lists .22 & .32 rimfire Robin Hood models, but doesn’t list .41 caliber. From this I would guess that it may be fairly scarce spur-trigger. This, combined with the fact that larger calibers generally bring a bit more in these guns, might add up to a retail value in the $150 to $250 range, if in NRA Antique Good condition.
Hope that helps! -- Jim
PHOTO CAPTION “Robin Hood” revolvers, such as this .22, were inexpensive spur-triggers from the late 1800’s.
PONY EXPRESS “15-SHOOTER”
Q - In researching a great grandfather's life 1800 - 1874 I find mention of a
"15 shooter" being used as he crossed the plains. He was involved with the Pony Express. Could you tell me where I might find out about such a weapon?
Thank you - Joe
A -- I've not heard that term used before. My guess would be that the reference may be to one of the early repeating rifles, with the most likely candidates being the brass framed levers actions - the Henry & the Winchester Model 1866.
The Henry had a 15 round capacity, and was made 1860 to 1866. Both the Henry & the 7 shot Spencer repeater were introduced during the Civil War, and I've seen both attributed with the nickname of "that Yankee rifle that you load on Sunday & shoot all week".
The Henry's successor, the Winchester Model 1866, was also a brass frame lever action, and included a wooden forend, absent on the Henry. The Win 1866 rifle & musket both had a capacity of 15 rounds of the original round nose bullet loads (although when the flat nosed loads were introduced, the magazines would hold 17 rounds). The shorter, handy 1866 carbine version held only 13 rounds of flat-nose or 11 rounds of round-nose ammunition. The distinctive brass frame of the 1866 earned it the nickname of "Yellowboy".
A final possibility, introduced at the end of the time span you mention, would be the Winchester Model 1873, which carried 15 rounds in rifle configuration (17 in musket, 12 in carbine).
As you doubtless know, the Pony Express had a brief but glorious life, lasting only from April 1860 through November 1861 (a period during which the Henry would have been the only candidate for a "15-shooter", and would have been quite scarce at that early date). Although original plans had been for the Express riders to carry a carbine & two revolvers, the need to lighten their load quickly reduced standard armament to a single revolver & a knife. -- Jim
PHOTO CAPTION - BrassFrm.jpg - Both the Winchester 1866 (top) and its predecessor the Henry (bottom) could be considered “15-shooters”. Both are brass-framed lever actions, and are considered prize pieces by many collectors. The more valuable Henry is quickly distinguished from most other early lever actions by it’s lack of a wooden forend & the absence of a loading gate in the frame.
WINCHESTER SINGLE SHOT .22 WCF
Q -- Jim:
My family has an old Winchester rifle. I
believe it is an 1885 single shot octagon
barrel. The caliber stamped on the barrel is
22WCF. That must not be a regular 22 center
fire cartridge. I put one in and it fell
into the barrel. Can you help me with this?
Do they still make the shell for this gun?
Thanks for your help.
Randy
A -- Randy, the Winchester 1885 High Wall & Low Wall single shot rifles are desirable collector pieces, and many folks still enjoy shooting these nicely accurate old rifles with appropriate loadings. The .22 Winchester Centerfire (.22 WCF) cartridge is an obsolete round, and was introduced in 1885 specifically for the single shot Winchester in its first year of manufacture. According to Barnes' "Cartridges of the World", it was discontinued in 1936.
I'm wondering if maybe the round you tried to chamber was the common .22 rimfire, rather than one of the modern .22 centerfire cartridges? The .22 WCF was a relatively small centerfire cartridge, launching a 45 grain bullet at about 1500 to 1600 feet per second,. This would give it a power level about midway between today's rimfire "hyper-velocity" .22 long rifle cartridges, such as the Stinger, and the .22 Magnum Rimfire. Barnes notes the .22 WCF as a predecessor of today's .22 Hornet centerfire cartridge, although the two are NOT interchangeable. -- Jim
PHOTO CAPTION - Winchester Model 1885 single shot. Shown here is the Low Wall version. High Wall has a higher, more square profile at the rear of the frame by the hammer.
LEWIS & CLARK AIR RIFLE
Q -- Our friend is interested in the air rifle used by the Lewis & Clark expedition. His understanding of the rifle is that its an Austrian model in use in 1803 with the air canister mounted below the trigger. But a very knowledgeable park ranger at the fort near Astoria, OR demonstrated a rifle with a round canister in the stock. He said this was the type used by the L & C expedition. The canister was made of copper which unscrewed from the rifle when it needed to be pumped up. John understands the gun was made by an inventor by the name of Lukins (?) who loaned it to Louis. When the expedition returned to St. Louis, the gun was returned to its maker and later sold at an estate auction as the rifle used by L & C. The gun is understood to be in a military museum somewhere. The ranger at the fort told John that most historians accept this later version of the story. Jim, can you shed any more light on this piece of history (legend?) from the distant past?
A -- There has been a good deal of discussion & speculation over the Lewis & Clark air rifle. It is known that “The Corps of Discovery”, as it was known, had an early air gun in their gear. It has been reported that the Indians they encountered were much more impressed with this relatively silent weapon than with the standard muzzleloading arms they carried.
The air guns of this era were quite powerful large caliber weapons, capable of taking medium to large game. I understand they were outlawed for use in warfare in Europe, due to the stealth potential of their quiet discharge.
My best understanding, from informal visits with some fairly serious L&C scholars, is that the exact type of air rifle carried by the expedition is unknown. There were at least two major styles, as you describe - one has the air reservoir in a hollow metal buttstock which unscrewed to be pumped up to pressurize while the other type had a large spherical air reservoir hanging like a globe below the rear underside of the barrel.
You can find references to back up either type. My understanding is that there's no firm agreement among historians as to which one it was, and that the actual gun used was not preserved anywhere.
Jim
PHOTO CAPTION - An early air rifle, ca. 1800, with air reservoir in hollow metal buttstock.
BUYING GUNS AT AUCTION
Q - I went to an auction recently where a Remington pump shotgun sold for $300. Best I could tell, there was no paperwork required of the buyer. What are the laws concerning sale of guns at auction? Are auctions a good place to buy?
A -- I auction firearms fairly regularly as part of my business selling antique & collectible guns.
There are specific provisions in the federal regulations covering the auction of firearms. If you have a serious interest, check there for specifics.
As a quick, layman’s summary, if firearms are sold at auction by an auctioneer as part of the liquidation of an estate or similar situation, the auctioneer is acting as the agent of the guns’ owner, and the sale is treated as if it were a sale by a private individual. For example, handguns can only be sold someone from the same state as the owner.
If the auctioneer accepts firearms from various consignors, the auctioneer is engaging "in the business" of selling firearms. Accordingly, he must have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) and must treat the sale as any other FFL dealer would -- i.e., NICS check or state equivalent, 4473 form, transfer conducted at licensed premises, etc.
I also often buy firearms from other firearms specialist auctioneers for resale. I find that at any given major gun auction (unless there are reserves on everything), there will usually be a few sleepers that you can pick up cheap if you're on your toes & ready to bid.
Conversely, I find that if a couple guns are offered in a general auction, they are usually not worth waiting around for. They often tend to bring "retail plus" type prices, since the guys in the crowd have been hanging around all day while their wives bid on glassware, hoping to pick up a gun at a bargain price, and when the time comes to bid, the two dumbest or most stubborn fellas will run the price up pretty good. Not always, but it is a distinct pattern. There are sometimes exceptions: if the guns were not advertised (borders on negligence by the auctioneer); or if the gun has extra value as a rare, little-known variation that the seller has not recognized but only one bidder has.
In that situation, however, you still have to be a bit cautious. Most general auctions are on an "as is, where is" basis. As such, they have a bit of a rep as a dumping ground for fake or problem pieces that the owner just wants to get rid of, hoping the buyer will not look closely, or will not be knowledgeable enough to spot the problem. -- Jim
WELLS FARGO SAWED-OFF SHOTGUN
Q -- I would greatly appreciate anything you could tell me. My father left
us a rifle, it is sawed off shotgun. It was his for as long as I can
remember. Its marked as a Wells Fargo rifle. We don't really care of the
worth, as it was my Dads, but recently we've been questioned as its
authenticity. The rifle is marked Acme Gun Co. I can't find such a Co.
Thought if I could date it in some way, we could insure it appropriately.
It states carved on the side, New York to Cisco 1851 do these dates
correspond, Help if you can.
Thanks for any help you might give
Sincerely
Mary
A -- Hi Mary,
There are a couple potential problem areas you should be aware of with your shotgun before we go further:
1. The majority of the Wells Fargo marked short barrel double shotguns encountered are fakes, many made up decades ago. Further, there is significant disagreement among experts as to identification of authentic Wells Fargo shotgun markings. A true WF shotgun will bring a nice premium, but it's a very murky field. To bring full value, such a gun almost must have receipt showing the gun sold directly from WF inventory, or other such provenance dating back to period of use.
2. If the gun is a breechloader, taking fixed shotshells, it may be illegal to own if the barrels are shorter than 18", unless it has been previously registered & taxed w/ the BATF.
Those issues aside, and ignoring for the moment the WF marking, Acme was a trade name used by Davenport & other gun companies in the late 19th & early 20th centuries.
If your gun is a breechloader (rather than a muzzleloader), the 1851 date carved on the side is probably spurious as well. Breechloading double shotguns were not in general use by then. Also, the Acme trade name was not used to my knowledge until decades later. The 1851 date would be plausible for a muzzleloader. The date is also a bit of a problem in relationship to the “Wells Fargo” marking, as Wells Fargo was not established until 1852. -- Jim
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