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. Last updated
02/03/06.
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ASK THE GUN GUY ARCHIVES
-- Spring 2001
Q&A column by Jim Supica, as originally published in Shotgun News.
On this page:
Featured essay: HANG TOGETHER OR HANG SEPARATELY - Gun collector snobbery
Other topics:
Hang together, or hang separately
In a previous “Gun Guy”, I was ranting & snorting about “collectors” vs. “accumulators”. Allow me to climb into the pulpit again for a moment. It seems to me that we could all benefit by broadening our concept of what exactly it takes to be a "gun collector". Let's start off by noting that in my experience gun folk are the finest people you could ever want to meet.
That said, there's a very small minority of Gun Collectors who have the teeniest tendency to be a wee bit snobbish, considering True Collectors to be an elite minority.
There are even a very few who care not about the rights of the great unwashed to own the guns of their choice. Some can even be uninterested in, or even a bit supportive of such misguided efforts as the banning of guns on the basis of cosmetics ("assault weapons") or cost ("Saturday Night Specials"), or eliminating the right of individuals to transfer their personal property ("closing the gun show loophole").
These gents need to wake up & smell the Hoppes. They need to understand that "divide & conquer" has been one of the most effective tools of misguided or malevolent anti-gunners, and that all Second Amendment rights are in danger of being nibbled to death by ducks, just a little piece at a time.
Only a step or two down the road, high grade doubles become "street-sweeping scatterguns", Winchester Model 70's become "deadly accurate sniper rifles", and percussion Colts represent "the antique gun loophole". Look to Britain to see the future of this path - today the commoner's .22; tomorrow the gentry's fox hunt. If there are to be any gun collectors in the future, there need to be many gun collectors now. We need a Big Tent.
At the other end of the spectrum, there seems to be a reluctance of some gun guys to call themselves "gun collectors". Perhaps this comes from the inaccurate perception that the small constipated minority discussed above represents the breed as a whole, and this is far from the case.
Some may worry that being considered a "gun collector" tags them as being a bit of a kook. On the contrary, it should be a badge of honor. A gun collector is someone who appreciates the history represented by a firearms, or is a student of the mechanical evolution of guns, or enjoys the fascinating variety of arms. And face it, if the mainstream media got a photo of your guns, it would either be a "dangerous private arsenal" or a "gun collection". Which do you prefer?
I'd submit that if you own even one gun that you don't use, you ARE a gun collector. Be proud. Say it loud.
WM. MOORE SHOTGUN & DOCUMENTING GUN HISTORY
Q - I found an old side by side shotgun in my aunt's attic. The only markings I
can find is the name "Wm Moore Co" stamped on each side of the flange, rear of
the receiver where the stock attaches and, the words "CAST STEEL" stamped on
the top, in between the barrels at the rear near the breach. No discernible
serial numbers anywhere. It has two (2) large external hammers with a
separate trigger for each. The gun fires center-fire cartridges. My aunt
(in her 90's) thought the gun was used by her great-grandfather during the
Civil War. He was a sheriff who was shot & killed in 1886 and this gun
reportedly belonged to him. But I am unaware of centerfire shotguns being
developed in the 1860's. I thought they were developed 20 years +/- later.
Please let me know where I can find more info on this gun. thanks - J. P.
A - While they were not common, breech loading shotguns were in use by the 1860’s, so I suppose it’s possible that one could have been used in the Civil War. They seem to have become more popular & widely available in the 1870’s & 1880’s.
There were Wm. Moore & Co. marked shotguns listed in hardware catalogs in the late 1880's. A Wm. Moore was also involved in the conversion of muzzle loaders to breech loaders in the mid-1860's, both per Charles Carder's "Side by Sides of the World" book.
I hope you will be able to keep the family history with the gun -- too often that type of fascinating information is lost forever. It would sure be nice to get your aunt’s recollections down in writing. Some of the key things when making such a record are:
1 - Be specific in identifying the gun - make, model & serial number are best, if available. If not, include a detailed description w/ any distinguishing marks or characteristics.
2 - Be conscientious in identifying the origin & reliability of the story - is it first hand or a story passed down in the family or hazily remembered hear-say? Any of these can be interesting, and being specific about the source adds credibility. Don’t stretch to make the story more certain that it is. For example, if your aunt is not absolutely certain that specific shotgun was the one owned by her great-grandfather, say so.
3 - It is best to get the statement from the living person most closely tied to the gun or its user, stating how they are related to the person or story involved. It’s also a nice touch to have the statement notarized -- easily done at most banks or real estate offices.
The famous collector’s lament is “if only this old gun could talk”. Sometimes you can help insure that an old gun will be able to speak to future generations.
GOLCHER MUZZLELOADER
Q - I have in my possession a rifle that my father purchased before he died in 1963. I know very little about the rifle, I did read the "plate" and found that it appears to have been made by a man named Joseph Goicher. (I think I have the spelling right, the plate had been rubbed down significantly.) Please excuse my ignorance but I'm not real familiar with the terminology.
The rifle itself is about 4 feet 6 inches long with a 38 inch barrel. On the top of the barrel the letters "A D" are engraved in script. It has two triggers, which I don't understand. The rifle is in very good to excellent condition, with just a few minor scratches on the wood beneath the barrel. It is a muzzleloading rifle and has (as far as I can tell) the original "tamping rod" (if that is what you call it). The only other thing that would need to be repaired would be the missing hammer(firing mechanism), my father was a machinist and was going to make one but became ill and passed before he could complete it.
I have no interest in selling the rifle, but I would like to try and see what it is worth for insurance purposes. I searched for "Joseph Goicher" and Antique Guns on the web, but came up empty. Then I looked under antique guns and found your website.
Thank you in advance for any assistance you may be able to provide.
Regards,
Bill
A - Figuring out the true maker of an American muzzleloading firearm can take a bit of detective work & guesswork. Expert collectors in this field will often be able to identify the era & locale, and often the probable individual gunsmith, by the configuration & general style of the gun. However, the markings on the gun, along with some good reference books, can provide clues for those of us who are less than expert.
A general understanding of how arms were made during that era is helpful. During the 1700’s & early 1800’s most sporting firearms were pretty much individually made by individual gunsmiths. There are literally thousands of these artisans whose names can be found marked on American made muzzleloaders.
Military arms were made after a specific “pattern”, but still were often contracted out to various gunsmiths, each of whom may have small variations within the prescribed pattern. Eli Whitney made major steps towards standardization of parts with the Model 1798 Flintlock, but according to Flayderman’s, fully interchangeable parts on military arms did not occur until the Hall Model 1819 Flintlock.
Generally, however, sporting arms continued to be made by the individual gunsmiths. It wasn’t until the mid-1800’s that production shifted to larger firms making specific set models with interchangeable mass-produced parts.
Remember that the phrase “lock, stock & barrel” comes from early gunmaking, when these were the three distinctly separate parts of the gun. It was not unusual for a gunsmith to use locks which were made by someone else, fitting these to a barrel & stock of his own manufacture. In such a case, the barrel maker, rather than the lock maker, is generally considered to be the gunsmith who made the gun.
I suspect the name on your lock may be “Golcher” instead of Goicher. Golcher is one of the most often encountered names on American muzzle-loading rifles. There were a number of American gunsmiths named Golcher or Goulcher, many of them doubtless related. Specifically, there was a Joseph Golcher located in Philadelphia who was a maker of locks only. These locks were sold to other individual gunsmiths, who produced the completed gun. I’ve primarily seen the Golcher name on percussion locks, and don’t recall if I’ve seen it on flintlocks. Judging from the frequency with which Golcher locks show up, however, he must have been very prolific during the percussion era.
According to Frank Sellers’ “American Gunsmiths”, there was an Adam Daniels in Lancaster Pennsylvania who made flintlock “Kentucky” rifles around 1820-1840, and marked his guns “A D”.
It seems likely that if your gun is a flintlock, it is an Adam Daniels gun made with a Golcher lock.
If it’s a percussion gun, there’s another possibility. During the middle 19th century, it was a fairly common practice to convert old fashioned flintlock guns to the more modern & reliable percussion cap system. It seems very possible that your gun may have been converted using a Golcher lock with an old flintlock Adam Daniels barrel, possibly by yet another, third gunsmith at a later date in the mid-1800’s.
As you can understand, trying to guess a value where there are so many variables is quite a challenge (and we haven’t even begun discussing the condition of the gun). I can tell you that I find that most percussion rifles which can’t be attributed to a specific maker in average well-used condition seem to retail for me in the $250 to $400 range. Where the maker can be identified, the value of the gun can increase, and the increase can be substantial for specific gunsmiths. In addition, high condition guns would, of course, be more valuable.
Generalizing again, a flintlock converted to percussion will often bring less than a well made original percussion rifle, and an original flintlock will often bring double or better the value of a comparable percussion rifle. And then, we get into the flintlocks which were converted to percussion 150 years ago, and then converted BACK to flintlock by some 20th century collector......
To summarize, your gun is probably worth between $200 and $2,000, but could be more or less. I sincerely hope that helps, but somehow I doubt that it does.
If you’d like to research further yourself, in addition to the Sellers book, you might check the earlier “American Gunmakers” by Gluckman and Satterlee which is another good index of U.S. gunsmiths. In addition, Dr. James Whisker has written a number of very helpful books on the long guns of this era, all extensively photo illustrated, many of them focusing on the gunsmiths of a specific region. Finally, “The Pennsylvania - Kentucky Rifle” by Henry J. Kauffman has a good narrative section in addition to alphabetical listing of makers. -- Jim
PHOTO CAPTION - Percussion rifles made by a number of different gunsmiths may be found with locks marked “Golcher”.
SO-CALLED “WELLS FARGO” COLT POCKET MODEL
Q - I may be a bother but I found your e-mail address on the net. Not
knowing where to turn I send you this letter
My question, is the below a Wells Fargo? It is my intention to sell it
but I'm unable to find a fair idea of a price --- especially as I'm not
sure what it even is.
Thank you for any consideration.
Sincerely,
Chuck
Sam Colt 31 Cal. Single Action Percussion
Wells Fargo Model ??
Serial number 136579. All numbers match.
Top of barrel is stamped "ADDRESS SAM COLT NEW YORK CITY"
4 inch octagonal barrel "Rifling' is well defined no twist.
No bluing left
Brass trigger guard and strap
silver plating worn through on all but trigger area.
5 shot non-fluted cylinder.
Stagecoach robbery scene on cylinder
and Cylinder is marked "COLTS PATENT 135679"
all the metal has dents and dings
Left side of frame is stamped "COLTS PATENT"
A - Chuck, you have described a Colt 1849 Pocket Model, but have not provided the specific information that would tell whether yours is the rare so-called “Wells Fargo” variation of this little percussion revolver.
As you may know "Wells Fargo" is a misnomer. There is no history of that firm’s usage of this configuration revolver, but collectors have called it that for decades.
The distinguishing characteristics that make a Colt 1849 Pocket Model the so-called "Wells Fargo" variation are its lack of a loading lever, and the lack of a hole through the barrel lug for the rammer.
As to value, we recently sold one of these in Fine condition for $3,740 at auction. Sounds as if yours may be closer to Good to Very Good condition, and if so, I’d expect it might retail in the $1,000 to $2,000 range. Flayderman’s Guide lists a number of sub-variations of this gun which may bring premiums.
Hope that helps! - Jim
PHOTO CAPTION - Standard Colt 1849 Pocket Model (top) compared to rammer-less variation which is mistakenly called the “Wells Fargo Model”.
THE ORIGINAL DERINGERS
Q - I am working on a novel set in the 1850’s and would like to equip one of my characters with a small but effective concealable handgun. What would be appropriate for that era? -- Tom
A - Tom, a percussion pistol by Henry Deringer of Philadelphia would be about right. His small powerful single shot pistols were so well known that his name has come to be used when referring to any small concealable handgun - especially a single shot or multiple barrel pistol.
It’s common practice to add an “r” to his name - “derringer” - when using it as a generic term. This probably started when some of his competitors in the mid-19th Century began marking their copies of his designs with names similar to his, but with minor variations such as “Deringe” & “Berringer” in addition to “Derringer”. According to Flayderman’s Guide, one enterprising gunmaker, Slotter & Co., even hired one of Henry Deringer’s relatives, a tailor named John, to try to legitimize marking his guns “J. Deringer”.
At any rate, Henry Deringer’s hideout single shots were the standard of the era. He made some tiny ones (the smallest were nicknamed "Peanuts") that still packed a significant punch. In the later 1850's one of the then new 7-shot S&W Model One revolvers would also be an option, but it chambered a very anemic cartridge.
Hope that helps. -- Jim
PHOTO CAPTION - Original “Deringers” - top pistol and bottom “Peanut” by Henry Deringer, while middle pistol marked “J. Deringer” was actually made by Slotter.
Colt .22 Rifles
Q - I am looking for a gun, but the details are fuzzy. From time to time my dad
talks about a gun from his childhood and I am interested in finding out
about it and possibly locating one... Here is what I have heard...
It is a Colt, from the 1950's (not only made then but available then)
Maybe with a 73 (?) in the model number...
Lever, 22, Rifle, that is about it.
Any information you can provide on the model and pricing if you have one or
have sold one would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Karen
A - Karen, I don't believe that Colt has ever made any .22 lever action rifles.
Their only lever action was the .44 cal. Burgess model in the 1880's.
In the late 1950's they made a .22 single shot bolt action called the Colteer. In the 1960's they made .22 semi-autos & bolt actions called the Stagecoach, Colteer & Courier.
Winchester made a .22 cal. version of it's Model 1873 lever action (aka Mod. 73), but manufacture was discontinued in 1919.
Hope that helps! -- Jim
Animal Trap Guns
Q - I am interested in information on this particular gun, I have one in my
collection but know nothing about it or where it came from. Can you provide
information on this piece. "Taylor Fur Getter"
Thanks
Max
A - I've never found a great deal published on the Taylor Fur Getter animal-trap gun. A few sentences can be found in the out of print "Firearms Curiosa" by Winant. It suggests early 20th century manufacture, and shows a photo of a .22 caliber specimen.
However, much more important than background information, you should be aware that most "animal trap guns" which chamber & fire self contained metallic cartridges or shotshells (as opposed to flintlock or cap & ball loose-powder ignition) are usually considered illegal to possess unless they have been previously registered with and taxed by the BATF. I'm not certain whether all Taylor's take such fixed ammunition, but thought you would want to know.
There is no way to legally register one which has not been previously registered. There is a provision in the law which allows some such restricted firearms to be accepted by government-funded museum. At present, seems as if such donation, or destruction of the piece, are the only legal options for non-registered NFA firearms.
Also, of course as I'm sure you realize, setting any such type of indiscriminate firearm trap, be it percussion or cartridge, is thoroughly & appropriately illegal.
They are fascinating pieces, and it's a shame that their legal status makes them difficult to collect & study, but that's the law.
This is one area where a bit of lobbying might be effective in the current political climate. There is some discussion that the BATF might be willing to consider re-opening an amnesty period to allow unregistered NFA guns, including such other restricted items as H&R Handi-guns, Marbles Game Getters & the like, to be registered & legally owned.
These types of items often turn up in estates, technically making the heirs criminals when they receive them. It would be nice if these interesting bits of firearms history could have some legal future other than the cutting torch. Might be worth a call or email to your Congressman & Senators.
-- Jim
Animal trap guns such as this percussion Reuthe double barrel model are a fascinating field. The bait was attached to the barbed hooks, with the gun set to fire when the bait was taken. However, trap guns which fire self contained cartridges are often illegal to possess unless previously registered with the BATF.
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. Last updated
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Copyright Old Town Station, Ltd.